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ek chhoti si naukri ka talabgar hu mai
ek chhoti si naukri ka talabgar hu mai tumse kuch or jo mangu to gunehgar hu mai ek chhoti si naukri ka talabgar hu mai ek so athwi arzi meri armano ki ek so athwi arzi meri armano ki karlo manjur ki bekari se bezar hu mai tumse kuch or jo mangu to gunehgar hu mai ek chhoti si naukri ka talabgar hu mai mai kal calector na banu or na banunga afsar mai kal calector na banu or na banunga afsar apna babu hi banalo mujhe bekar hu mai ek chhoti si naukri ka talabgar hu mai maine kuch ghas nahi kati kiya b a pass maine kuch ghas nahi kati kiya b a pass o samjhadar samjh lo ke samjhdar hu mai tumse kuch or jo mangu to gunehgar hu mai ek chhoti si naukri ka talabgar hu mai khel sab khele hai footbal me kaptan bhi tha khel sab khele hai footbal me kaptan bhi tha fir se maidan me aane ko bhi taiyar hu mai ek chhoti si naukri ka talabgar hu mai pyari maa choti bahan jidnagi hai rog jinhe pyari maa choti bahan jidnagi hai rog jinhe lok parlok mere sar pe hai majhdar hu mai ek chhoti si naukri ka talabgar hu mai fadak rahi hai dayi aanhk ye achha hai sagun fadak rahi hai dayi aanhk ye achha hai sagun ha jo ho jaye to is par se us par hu mai tumse kuch or jo mangu to gunehgar hu mai ek chhoti si naukri ka talabgar hu mai ek chhoti si naukri ka talabgar hu mai
Experts in classical music sould no doubt give you avery comprehensive list. Off-hand, I think thefollowing songs by S-J are based on Bhairavi:'Kaise samjhaaooN, baRe na-samajh ho' (Suraj)'Ja ja ja re, ja reja' (Naya Ghar)'Laga kar dil pareshaaN haiN, mohabbat.' (Naya Ghar)'Are koi jaao ke piya ko bulaao ke gori.'
(Patrani)'Kabhi to aa, o sapnoN men.' (Patrani)'Barsaat men hum se mile tum sajan' (Barsaat)'Ulfat ka saaz chheRo, samaaN suhana hai' (Aurat)'Suno chhoTi si guRiya ki lambi kahaani' (Seema)'Kisi ne apna bana ke mujhko muskuraana.' (Patita)'Duniya bananewale, kya tere dil men.' (Teesri Kasam)'Haaye GHazab kahiN taara TooTa' (Teesri Kasam)'Yeh mohabbat ki daastaaN suno' (Mayurpankh)'Naache ang ang ang tere aage, baaje re.' (Raj HaTh)Two or three songs in 'Sanyasi' were I think based onBhairavi.Corrections in the above list would be most welcome.When you have completed the task, I am sure you wouldpost the list to our NG.In due course, if you decide to make a similar list ofBhairavi songs by Naushad, I think you may come upwith a bigger compilation. I think Naushad and SJ havethe largest number of compositions in this sweet raag.AfzalPradeep04.12.01 21:19. (shahrukh) wrote in message news.
'Afzal A. Khan' wrote in message news. shahrukh wrote: Hi!
I am trying to make a list of ALL Shankar Jaikishan songs in Bhairavi. Could you help by adding the titles in this thread. There are probably hindreds more. Please add. Thanks SK But thanks for your addition.
Looking for more. TooHi,Sorry to cut the above paras, Following songs are from the (1950's?)film MayurpankhMai to chali paschim purab chali Duniya; meri kismat pe badi jaleduniya;Mohobbat ki dasta aaj suno, ye mohobbatki dasta suno 'and'Khushiyoke chand muskuraye re, Dekho mast zamane aaye re haye re allsound Bhairavi.Could they be SJ's creation:Tere beena aag ye chandani tu aaaaaaa jaa from Aawara.regards,Prakash PradhanAfzal A. Khan05.12.01 20:17. In many of their early films, SJ did make gooduse of this sweet melody, but one cannot look fora recognisably regular rendition of the raag inall such cases; mostly the songs sort of remindyou of the raag - they carry a whiff of themelody. Evenwhen they were past their prime (in the RMIM sense!,though they did remain very popular amongst the massestill the late sixties), many of their compositionscarried the Bhairavi 'rang'.
In this later period,the effect was somewhat marred by the use ofwestern instruments e.g. Electric guitar and certainpercussion 'embellishments'.I offer a few additions to the list.
As alreadystated, corrections would be most welcome:'Hum se no poochho koi pyaar kya hai, pyaar kya hai'(Kali Ghata)'Kaahe ko der lagaai re' (Daag)'Un se pyaar ho gaya, dil mera kho gaya' (Badal)'Aayi aayi raat suhaani, sun le KHushi ki kahaani'(Poonam)'Dil ka na karna aitibaar koi' (Halaku)'Tera jaana, dil ke armaanoN ka.' (Anari)'Aaja sanam, madhur chaaNni men hum' (Chori Chori)'Yeh to kaho kaun ho tum, kaun ho tum' (Aashiq)'Bol Radha bol sangam hoga ke nahiN' (Sangam)'TumheN aur kya dooN main dil ke sivaaye'(Aayi Milan ki Bela)'Mil gayi, mil gayi, mil gayi re.' (Pyar Mohabbat)Interestingly, this last song seems to have beendeleted from the movie later on.
It was very muchthere when I saw the film in Bombay's MarathaMandir in January 1967.Afzalshahrukh05.12.01 20:51. Well, here are a few additional songs which sort ofremind me of Bhairavi:'BichhRe huwe pardesi' (Barsat)'Kaisi KHushi ki hai raat' (Nagina, stg. Nutan, Nasir Khan)'Raaz-e-ulfat chhupaauN kahaaN' (Aurat)'Dard-e-jigar Thehr zara' (Aurat)'KHushiyoN ke chaaNd muskuraaye re' (Mayurpankh)'BaaGHoN men, bahaaroN men iThlaata gaata' (Chhoti Bahen)'BaakaR bam bam bam bam baaje damaroo' (KaThputli)'Haaye tu hi gaya mohe bhool re' (KaThputli)'Yeh hariyali aur yeh raasta' (Hariyali Aur Rasta)'ChaaNd aaheN bharega' (Apne Huwe Paraye?)'Unki pehli nazar kya asar kar gayi' (April Fool)AfzalSanjeev Ramabhadran07.12.01 14:05. In article,(SKalra902) wrote: Narendra Joshi wrote: Hi. Looks like SJ had a thing for Bhairavi. How about following songs: 'Zoomata mousam mast mahina' - Ujala That is hilarious.
'zoom' karataa huaa mousam; 'zoom zoom' karta huaa dil.:) All kidding aside, I still can't understand why some of us use the 'z' consonant, which has the sound of 'zoo' ( or as in 'Zee' TV), for the sound 'jhh'?I remember being puzzled by this too. Somebody had once posted about thesong 'kahe zoom zoom raat ye suhaanii'. 8-) But I actually thought aboutit and came up with an answer that may not be correct. FWIW:This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati too,but I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the 'z' and'jh' sounds.
They pronounce both as 'zh'. There was (and perhaps stillis) a movie theater in Dadar called 'Plaza'. The Devnagaritransliteration of the name was supplied as 'plaajhaa'. Maharashtrianswould pronounce the name as 'plaazhaa'.Sometimes they also mix up 'z' and 'j'. I remember asking one veryKonkanastha Brahmin girl where she studied and she said 'V-zay-T-I' forVJTI.Oddly enough this applies only to words from other languages.
In Marathiitself the distinctions between 'z', 'j', and 'zh' are clearly marked.For example (trying desperately to make this musically relevant here!)the Bhairavi naaTyapad 'saravaatmakaa, saraveshwaraa' from YayatiDevyani, wonderfully recorded by Jitendra Abhisheki, has the lineze ze jagii zagate tayaa maazhe mhaNaa karuNaakaraa-the words have to be pronounced as written above. It would be badMarathi pronunciation to say 'je je zagii', for example, or 'maajhe'. Infact the 'jh' sound does not exist in Marathi.(Note, I am not iTransing. In iTrans the line would be:je je jagii jagate tayaa maajhe mhaNaa karuNaakaraa-iTrans reproduces script, not pronunciation. There is no distinctionbetween 'z' and 'j' in Marathi writing though it exists inpronunciation-no nukta the way there is in Hindi. And in Marathi theletter represented in iTrans as 'jh' is pronounced 'zh')-sBalaji Murthy08.12.01 01:19. On 08 Dec 2001 01:32:41 GMT, (SKalra902) wrote: Narendra Joshi wrote: 'Zoomata mousam mast mahina' - Ujala That is hilarious.
'zoom' karataa huaa mousam; 'zoom zoom' karta huaa dil.:) All kidding aside, I still can't understand why some of us use the 'z' consonant, which has the sound of 'zoo' ( or as in 'Zee' TV), for the sound 'jhh'? 'Zoome zoome dil mera, chandaki chandanime' -??? Satish KalraThis is the age old problem of transliteration. I have seen the use of 'z' for theITRANS consonent 'jh' mainly in Maharashtra, although Gujaratis also areknown to use (case in point Snehal Oza). A maharashtrian friend once toldme that the native sound is indeed closer to 'z' than 'jh', hence the usage.One of the most prominent places in Bombay is the Zaveri Bazaar (or should itbe Jhaveri Bajhaar:)).- BalajiSKalra90208.12.01 07:40. Bose wrote:This may not be just people from a region - I know of a couple of Punjabifriends of mine, who still give out the license tags of their cars as'FJZ-1234' as Eff-Jay-Gee., or pronouncing their name - spelt Vinod - asBinod.
It may probably have more to do with the sounds as imparted to themwhile learning. It is like so many people not being able to distinguishbetween the 'sa' and the 'sha' sounds, and actually reversing the sounds.Another example of such language atrocity is seen while going thru the creditsof songs on the inlay cards of some cassettes/CDs, printed in Hindi - inregards to the 'chhote 'uu' kii maatraa' Vs.
The 'bade 'uu' kii maatraa',transposing the two, and in the process making the titles really funny.Thankfully, I have not yet seen any one writing 'muuhabbat' instead of'muhabbat'.:-)I wish something were being done to 'standardise' teaching all over thecountry. But then, that is proabably the last thing on the minds of the peoplewho run the country.Happy listenings.Satish KalraAshok08.12.01 08:56. In article, says. (SKalra902) wrote: All kidding aside, I still can't understand why some of us use the 'z' consonant, which has the sound of 'zoo' ( or as in 'Zee' TV), for the sound 'jhh'?OK, Zatish:What is this 'jhh' sound? And which transliteration convention are you following?This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati too,but I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the 'z' and'jh' sounds. They pronounce both as 'zh'.OK, Zurazit:What is this 'zh' sound?
And which transliteration convention are you following?-sSince 's' is quite often pronounced as 'z' in English, let us make thatalso into a z.AshokSKalra90208.12.01 09:45. There is one exception. Bose' wrote in message news. being puzzled by this too.
Somebody had once posted about the song 'kahe zoom zoom raat ye suhaanii'. 8-) But I actually thought about it and came up with an answer that may not be correct. FWIW: This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati too, but I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the 'z' and 'jh' sounds. They pronounce both as 'zh'.
There was (and perhaps stillIn gujarati there is no 'z' as in zamana, zindagi or zee. (I know evenhindi doesnt have a 'z', it came only from urdu no?).There is 'j' as in jaa, jawaab and a 'jh' as in 'jhumar'(gujarati wordfor tree is jhaaD). When writing 'zindagi' they write is as 'jindagi'.So 'jh' is not a problem with gujaratis, the problem comes when writing'z', it is almost always written as 'jh'.
'plaza' will be writtenas 'plaajha', but ppl who know english will know how to pronounce it. Thosewho dont, will even pronouce it as plaajhaa.The marathis I know always say 'z' for 'jh' when saying tujhe and mujhe:).but in when speaking marathi they say 'jh' and 'z' and 'j' all properly.-NehaSKalra90209.12.01 07:11. (Sudhir) wrote in message news. There is one exception.
In Bengali language, it seems there is no consonant for V, hence Vinod is spelled and pronounced as: Binod, which is O.K., if you are a Bengali. The fun starts when you ask a Bengali to pronounce: V for Victory. The sound which you will hear will be: BICTORY.
Correction. In Bengali 'victory' would sound 'bhictory', (inHindi it would sound 'wictory', no?) and 'wed'='oyed'.
Thatshow the absence of one syllable is compensated in differentcontexts. Sounds trifling odd, but then Bengalis speakEnglish much better than the English can speak Bengali;)Given that Mr. Sudhir who had written the followingon another thread in RMIM: 'Please don't post unrelatedmessages. You should post message only if you have ananswer.
If something is bothering you, or you want the worldto know about some irrelevent facts, you can start a newthread.' -has written this post, it must be he finds a relationbetween pronunciation of English words in Indian languagesand 'Shankar-Jaikishen songs in Bhairavi'. Would liketo know from him what that relation is. Or it might be thecase, (to quote him) 'something is bothering' him or he'wants the world to know some irrelevant facts'.inwhich case I understand why he started this sub-thread.-PrithvirajUVR10.12.01 18:41. (Neha) wrote: being puzzled by this too. Somebody had once posted about the song 'kahe zoom zoom raat ye suhaanii'.
8-) But I actually thought about it and came up with an answer that may not be correct. FWIW: This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati toobut I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the 'z' and 'jh' sounds.
They pronounce both as 'zh'. There was (and perhaps still In gujarati there is no 'z' as in zamana, zindagi or zee. (I know even hindi doesnt have a 'z', it came only from urdu no?).How interesting! I guess this makes Telugu the only Indian languageto possess a NATIVE 'z'-like sound.(Actually I don't know about.only. Does Kannada have a similar nativesound?
Balaji?)The Telugu word, 'zaabili', meaning moonlight, uses this sound.The 'z' is pronounced EXACTLY like the one in 'Mozart' (or 'Mozzarella',if the former isn't cheesy enough for you:)) 'tzaabili', if you will.In print, this letter looks like a 'ja' with a modifier placed ON TOP.Originally, Telugu words borrowed from Farsi/Urdu (mainly used in legalpaperwork) were also transcribed using this letter. That included'mEzu', 'taaveezu', 'dastaavEzu' (did I mention 'legal paperwork?).' :)An unfortunate fate similar to the Hindi 'za' has befallen the Telugu'za', too. Moonlight is now 'jaabili', and those imported words aremEju, taaveeju, dastaavEju.
Fortunately, this affliction seems tobe restricted to the print media - most people I know STILL say'zaabili'.BTW, there's a 's'-like counterpart to this Telugu 'z', too. It'sused in the Telugu word for cold/cool: 'challa' is what it's writtenas, nowadays, but the proper pronunciation remains 'tsalla'.Go on, say it both ways. 'challa', 'tsalla'. It even.sounds. cool:)-UVR.P.S. There is 'j' as in jaa, jawaab and a 'jh' as in 'jhumar'(gujarati word for tree is jhaaD).Some dialectical Hindi-speakers (especially from southern? MP)also use 'jhaa.D' as a universal replacement for 'pe.D'/'paudhaa'.For example: 'dekho, dekho, chamelI kaa jhaa.D!'
To my ears,all the beauty and fragrance of 'chamelii' has evaporated the momentyou call it a 'jhaa.D'. When writing 'zindagi' they write is as 'jindagi'. So 'jh' is not a problem with gujaratis, the problem comes when writing 'z', it is almost always written as 'jh'. 'plaza' will be written as 'plaajha', but ppl who know english will know how to pronounce it.
Those who dont, will even pronouce it as plaajhaa. The marathis I know always say 'z' for 'jh' when saying tujhe and mujhe:). but in when speaking marathi they say 'jh' and 'z' and 'j' all properly.shahrukh10.12.01 22:46. Here is the SJ Bhairavi list so far. UVR wrote:I thought that UVR stands for Urdu Vidwaan Ravindra and that u are an expertin urdu only:) U seem to be an expert in Telugu also! An unfortunate fate similar to the Hindi 'za' has befallen the Telugu 'za', too.
Moonlight is now 'jaabili', and those imported words are mEju, taaveeju, dastaavEju. Fortunately, this affliction seems to be restricted to the print media -^^^^^I guess this has spread to other media also. Note the usage in this eternallorii;'chandamaama raave, jaabili raaveekondekki raave, koTi puulu tevee'Infact I have even noticed it being used as 'jaabilli'.most people I know STILL say 'zaabili'.sg.yeskay11.12.01 07:24.
In article,says.How interesting! I guess this makes Telugu the only Indian languageto possess a NATIVE 'z'-like sound.A few years ago, I had asked on RMIM on whether Lata had mispronounced a word ina particular Salil Bengali song. The song in question was:'O tui nayan paakhi amar re'. The Hindi version is in Pinjre ka Panchi. Thesecond line of this song goes:'Bolo kothai jaabi re'. Lata pronounces 'jaabi' as 'zaabi'.
I remember Gautamand another reader(Sharmila Mukherjee perhaps), mentioning that infact Lata hadpronounced it exactly the way the word would be pronounced in East Bengal. Soatleast certain parts of the Bengali language seem to have the 'z' sound in ittoo.KetanNeha11.12.01 09:49. (UVR) wrote in message news. (Neha) wrote: being puzzled by this too.
Somebody had once posted about the song 'kahe zoom zoom raat ye suhaanii'. 8-) But I actually thought about it and came up with an answer that may not be correct. FWIW: This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati toobut I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the 'z' and 'jh' sounds. They pronounce both as 'zh'.
There was (and perhaps still In gujarati there is no 'z' as in zamana, zindagi or zee. (I know even hindi doesnt have a 'z', it came only from urdu no?). How interesting! I guess this makes Telugu the only Indian language to possess a NATIVE 'z'-like sound. (Actually I don't know about.only. Does Kannada have a similar native sound? Balaji?)Marathi has the 'z' sound, as in maaza, zaala, zop etc etc.
So Teluguis not the.only. language that has it.-NehaNeha11.12.01 09:49. (UVR) wrote in message news.
(Neha) wrote: being puzzled by this too. Somebody had once posted about the song 'kahe zoom zoom raat ye suhaanii'.
8-) But I actually thought about it and came up with an answer that may not be correct. FWIW: This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati toobut I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the 'z' and 'jh' sounds. They pronounce both as 'zh'. There was (and perhaps still In gujarati there is no 'z' as in zamana, zindagi or zee.
(I know even hindi doesnt have a 'z', it came only from urdu no?). How interesting! I guess this makes Telugu the only Indian language to possess a NATIVE 'z'-like sound. (Actually I don't know about.only.
Does Kannada have a similar native sound? Balaji?)Marathi has the 'z' sound, as in maaza, zaala, zop etc etc. So Teluguis not the.only. language that has it.-NehaBalaji A.S. Murthy11.12.01 10:46.
In article, says.How interesting! I guess this makes Telugu the only Indian languageto possess a NATIVE 'z'-like sound.(Actually I don't know about.only.
Does Kannada have a similar nativesound? Balaji?)Kannada doesn't really have a native 'z' sound. However, I have seen in printa version of 'ja' with two dots underneath which would signify a 'z' sound. Ihave similarly come across a similar case for 'ph' modified to get a 'f' sound.- BalajiP.S. I have seen Telugus mix up (rather interchange) the sounds of 'z' and 'ja'sounds, e.g. A few of my aquaintances used to consistently say 'viziavaadaa'and 'vijaag'.anils11.12.01 13:29. (UVR) wrote in message news.Are you SURE there's a 'z' or 'za' alphabet native to Telugu?I lived 20 years in Hyderabad and can't recall hearing anyone say'zabilli' and in script it is clearly 'jaabilli'.
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Is there a way towrite 'za' in telugu script? I am almost positive there is none,atleast in the telugu in use now. The only word I can recall with a'za' sound is 'mozu' (craving), but even that is written as 'moju'. Ican never understand why most telugu people, especially the ones whostudy in telugu schools, get confused and actually interchange 'za'and 'ja' sounds when it comes to non-telugu words. There are manyhilarious examples - 'zoology' is pronounced as 'joolozy'; 'zero' is'jeero'; 'zig-zag' is 'jig-jag' and so on.A couple of telugu speaking friends of mine from Hyderabad, despiterepeated corrections, continue to sing the 'Chor Machaye Shor' song as' Le zayenge, Le zayenge.' After reading the lyrics in English!Please note: I am not trying to single out telugu speaking people.Just want to say that they are as guilty as speakers of other Indianlanguages when it comes to mangling 'foreign' words.Anilyeskay11.12.01 14:15. Anils wrote: Are you SURE there's a 'z' or 'za' alphabet native to Telugu?
I lived 20 years in Hyderabad and can't recall hearing anyone say 'zabilli' and in script it is clearly 'jaabilli'. Is there a way to write 'za' in telugu script? I am almost positive there is none, atleast in the telugu in use now. The only word I can recall with a 'za' sound is 'mozu' (craving), but even that is written as 'moju'. I can never understand why most telugu people, especially the ones who study in telugu schools, get confused and actually interchange 'za' and 'ja' sounds when it comes to non-telugu words. There are many hilarious examples - 'zoology' is pronounced as 'joolozy'; 'zero' is 'jeero'; 'zig-zag' is 'jig-jag' and so on.
A couple of telugu speaking friends of mine from Hyderabad, despite repeated corrections, continue to sing the 'Chor Machaye Shor' song as ' Le zayenge, Le zayenge.' After reading the lyrics in English! Please note: I am not trying to single out telugu speaking people. Just want to say that they are as guilty as speakers of other Indian^^^^^^Read that as 'gulty':)I have also come across of a lot of ppl who interchange thepronounciation of 'pa' and 'fa'.
I had this Manager who always used toask for 'fefsi' and he used to begin a sentence like, 'I pheel.' .Arup Ray11.12.01 16:54. Wrote in message news. 'Bolo kothai jaabi re'. Lata pronounces 'jaabi' as 'zaabi'. I remember Gautam and another reader(Sharmila Mukherjee perhaps), mentioning that infact Lata had pronounced it exactly the way the word would be pronounced in East Bengal.
So atleast certain parts of the Bengali language seem to have the 'z' sound in it too.You are absolutely right. The 'ja' sound is often replaced with the'za' sound in the dialect of East Bengal. Even though, in the writtenlanguage it is always the letter 'ja' of the 'cha' (as in chalk)'varga' or the 'ya' (which is also pronounced as 'ja' in formalBengali). This actually makes the speakers of this dialog pronounceforeign words (used in Bengali) like 'Hazar' (Persian) correctly.However, as you pointed out even Sanskrit derived words like 'Jaoa'(to go) end up being pronounced as 'Zaoa.'
This 'ze-ification' isusually most frequently observed in the folk songs of East Bengal likethe Bhatiyalis. Often the word 'majhi' gets pronounced as 'mazi'. Sonot only is 'ja' often pronounced differently - so is 'jha'. AHemanta Mukherjee song - De dole dole dole (Music: HridyanathMangeshkar, Lyrics: Salil) has the starting line - 'haiyo re maarzor'. The word 'zor' (strong) would always be pronounced as 'jor' in'official' settings.So adding to Neha's addendum - there are now 3 languages with the 'za'sound. Are there different 'varna' (letters) for the 'za' sound inTelegu or Marathi? Or is it a variant pronunciation of the letter'ja' as it is in Bengali.
Ofcourse, I am assuming that both Teleguand Marathi have the letter 'ja' derived from Sanskrit but here I maybe wrong.Regards,-ArupAfzal A. Khan11.12.01 19:33. The 'z' sound is very much there in Urdu. In fact,there are four (4) different letters in the alphabetwhich denote this sound. Different words containingthe 'z' sound are spelled by using one of thesefour letters.
For example, 'zabardast' isspelled with the letter 'ze'; the word 'zara'(meaning 'thoRa' or little) is spelled with theletter 'zaal'; the word 'zulm' is spelled withthe letter 'zoe' and the word 'fiza' is spelledwith the letter 'zwaad'. This last letter ispronounced a little differently in the Arabiclanguage ('dwaad') - but we need not be concernedabout that pronunciation.What is more, there is another sound 'zh' (similarto the French 'j', as in 'je suis'), which isdenoted in Urdu by the letter 'zhe'. One wordcontaining this sound is 'zhaala-baari' whichmeans a 'hailstorm'.As so many examples cited have shown, a particularsound may be pronounced differently by people fromdifferent regions. Another example: I cannotquite articulate the Marathi letter 'ch', asin 'amchi pustak'.AfzalUVR11.12.01 21:00. (anils) writes: Are you SURE there's a 'z' or 'za' alphabet native to Telugu?Yes, I am. But note, again, that this isn't the 'pure' 'za'.
I lived 20 years in Hyderabad and can't recall hearing anyone say 'zabilli' and in script it is clearly 'jaabilli'.Who speaks 'Telugu' in Hyderabad? Unno.n sab logaa.N 'Urdu' bolte, nai.N?Just kidding.
Is there a way to write 'za' in telugu script? I am almost positive there is none,From my earlier post: In print, this letter looks like a 'ja' with a modifier placed ON TOP.You know how to write 'yuktamu'? Take that 'ta'-vottu and put itON TOP of the 'ja'. That's how I learnt it's written. Same's thecase with the 'tsa'. Write a 'cha' and put this mark on top of it. atleast in the telugu in use now.This is true.
I said as much in my earlier post. This character ismore-or-less obsolete now. Did you know how the classical singer'vOlETi' Venkateswarlu used to write his surname? 'v+e+U lE Ti'!I don't think any one does that anymore. That's disappeared, also,just like the two vowel characters that used to be here:a A i I u U R^u R^U x X e E ai o O au.^^^ ^^^and were used to transliterate Sanskrit words into Telugu. The only word I can recall with a 'za' sound is 'mozu' (craving), but even that is written as 'moju'.Another word that appears to be native to Telugu (i.e., not borrowedfrom another language, not even from Sanskrit) with the 'za' sound in it.-UVR.Surajit A. Bose11.12.01 23:58.
Long and pedantic post, musically irrelevant, absolutely not interestingto those who don't care about Marathi vs. Hindi pronunciation, perhapsnot even to those who do.Before anything else I should mention that just to keep Ashok'spettifogging objections away, I am using iTrans convention here, andpaying full heed to the fact that iTrans represents script, notpronunciation.A short version of what follows: (1) the Nagari letters iTransed 'ja','jha', and 'cha' are each used to represent two sounds apiece inMarathi. (2) One of the two sounds represented by each letter is thesame as the sound represented by that letter in Hindi. (3) The secondsound represented by 'ja' in Marathi is the same as the soundrepresented by 'ja' with a nukta below it, or 'za', in Hindi. (4) Thesecond sounds represented by 'jha' and 'cha' both have no equivalents inHindi pronunciation.The long version:In article,(Neha) wrote: Marathi has the 'z' sound, as in maaza, zaala, zop etc etc. So Telugu is not the.only. language that has it.No, that is not a 'za' sound as in 'zulm' or 'zindagii'.
The sound youare talking about is actually the way the letter 'jha' is pronounced inMarathi. The words you are using as examples would be iTransed 'maajha','jhaala', 'jhop'. Even though the letter in these words is the same asthe Hindi 'jha', the sound it represents is different from BOTH theHindi 'jha' and the Hindi 'za'.Let me see if I can explain the sound.Take the two Hindi letters thatare iTransed 'ja' and 'jha'. When pronounced, the second is an aspiratedform of the first.
Correct?Now take the sound represented in iTrans by 'za', and in the Hindiscript by the letter 'ja' with a nukta or dot below it. Imagine if thissound were aspirated. Imagine a sound that stands in the samerelation to the Hindi 'za' sound as the Hindi 'jha' sound does to theHindi 'ja' sound. That sound-an aspirated 'za'-is how the letteriTransed 'jha' is usually pronounced in Marathi. That sound does notexist in Hindi.So the word iTransed 'jhaa.Duu' ('broom') would look the same in Hindiand Marathi. But the pronunciation is very different. (Is it still the'same' word?
Ah, that's a philosophical problem.)To muddy the waters further, Marathi DOES have a sound which is more orless the same sound as 'jha' has in Hindi. The word 'jhe.nDaa' (flag) ispronounced with this sound.This sound is relatively rare in Marathibut it does occur in a few instances.In other words, the letter 'jha' represents two different sounds inMarathi. One is the same (more or less) as the sound represented by thatletter in Hindi, one is different.
And spelling gives no indication ofthe difference. You just have to know which pronunciation is called forin any given word.After all that rigmarole-Neha is nonetheless right, Marathi does have asound exactly like the initial sound in the English word 'zig-zag'. Itis written 'ja'. Hindi writing maintains a distinction between'ja' and 'za' via the nukta. Although both sounds are present inMarathi, they are written 'ja' without any distinction.
For example, thewords 'jaaduu' (magic) and 'jaagaa' (place) are written with the sameletter but are pronounced differently. The former is pronounced the sameway as the Hindi word. The latter uses the sound that in Hindi script is'ja' with a nukta below it-in iTrans, 'za'. You just have to know.In article,'Afzal A. Khan' wrote: As so many examples cited have shown, a particular sound may be pronounced differently by people from different regions. Another example: I cannot quite articulate the Marathi letter 'ch', as in 'amchi pustak'.'
cha' is another letter that has two different pronunciations inMarathi. One pronunciation, in words like 'chandra', is the same as theway the letter is pronounced in Hindi.The other one has no Hindi equivalent, so I can well imagine Afzal-bhaihaving difficulty with it! This is the pronunciation in words like'chor' (thief). I can't even begin to explain the sound, except to saysomewhat facetiously that the onomatopoeic English phrase 'tsk, tsk'seems to represent the same sound. You just have to hear it.And again, you have to know when seeing a word written down which of thetwo 'cha' sounds the word calls for.
(But in the phrase Afzal uses as anexample, the 'cha' sound happens to be the same as in Hindi, so I don'tknow where that particular difficulty arises!)Whew! If you've read this post all the way through, I don't know whichto offer you, my gratitude or my sympathies.
Both, I guess. Sorry.Ijust like languages, and got carried away.-sAbhay Phadnis12.12.01 20:25. Bose' wrote in messagenews:[email protected]. different regions. Another example: I cannot quite articulate the Marathi letter 'ch', as in 'amchi pustak'. And again, you have to know when seeing a word written down which of the two 'cha' sounds the word calls for.
(But in the phrase Afzal uses as an example, the 'cha' sound happens to be the same as in Hindi, so I don't know where that particular difficulty arises!)Er - not quite true! 'amchi pustak' is meaningless - in the context of book(neuter gender), it would have to be 'aamacha' where the 'cha' is pronouncedas in the Marathi pronunciation of 'chor' or 'chaal'. In 'aamachii' - usedwhen the gender of the 'possessed' is feminine - the 'cha' is indeed thesame as in the Hindi pronuniciation of 'chor'.A convoluted follow-up to a complicated posting!:-)Warm regards,AbhayUVR13.12.01 13:40. Sreenivas Paruchuri writes: Ravindra, Note: I follow RTS - the defacto translit. Scheme for Telugu on net. The letters: 'c' (allophone of 'ca' and 'j' (allophone of 'ja'), which you believe to be 'alphabets native to Telugu', were the creations of Charles Phillip Brown (1798-1889), whose contributions to Telugu are well known.Really?
I did NOT know this! I assumed that since this characterwas in use once upon a time, and isn't in use any longer, it wasnative to the script and had been dropped in recent decades by theprint media. Thanks for clearing the matter up. A native Telugu 'd always read 'mOju' (in print) as 'mOju'. (S)He really doesn't need that 'modifier placed ON TOP'.
Perhaps we 'd talk in detail about the influence of printing press on Indian languages. In fact, you rightly mentioned about vOlETi's way of writing his surname.I'd be glad to do so via private e-mail. Of course, given my meagerknowledge of Telugu and its literature/history, I'll be doing less ofthe 'talk'ing and more of the listening. Also a discussion on the 'colonial knowledge systems' would help us in better understanding of this problem.
But that 'd be discussing History/Anthropology on a list dedicated to Indian music. Regards, Sreenivas-UVR.Sreenivas Paruchuri13.12.01 12:48. UVR wrote: Are you SURE there's a 'z' or 'za' alphabet native to Telugu? Yes, I am. But note, again, that this isn't the 'pure' 'za'.
Is there a way to write 'za' in telugu script? I am almost positive there is none, From my earlier post: In print, this letter looks like a 'ja' with a modifier placed ON TOP.
You know how to write 'yuktamu'? Take that 'ta'-vottu and put it ON TOP of the 'ja'. That's how I learnt it's written. Same's the case with the 'tsa'.
Write a 'cha' and put this mark on top of it.Ravindra,Note: I follow RTS - the defacto translit. Scheme for Telugu on net.The letters: 'c' (allophone of 'ca' and 'j' (allophone of 'ja'), whichyou believe to be 'alphabets native to Telugu', were the creations ofCharles Phillip Brown (1798-1889), whose contributions to Telugu arewell known. A native Telugu 'd always read 'mOju' (in print) as 'mOju'.(S)He really doesn't need that 'modifier placed ON TOP'.Perhaps we 'd talk in detail about the influence of printing press onIndian languages. In fact, you rightly mentioned about vOlETi's way ofwriting his surname.Also a discussion on the 'colonial knowledge systems' would help us inbetter understanding of this problem. But that 'd be discussingHistory/Anthropology on a list dedicated to Indian music.Regards,SreenivasJ. Mohana Rao13.12.01 13:05.
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